weeping for tammuz easter

1994 by the United States Catholic Conference, Inc., published by Liquori How long was the weeping of Tammuz? : r/AcademicBiblical He obviously must be gone and unable to perform his cosmic function. His death was commemorated by 40 days of weeping for Tammuz because he unjustly dies so young, with worshipers giving up a pleasure in this life so he could in enjoy it in the next. voice, I will not hear them. Ezekiel 8:17-18, Then He called out in my hearing with a loud voice, saying, Let So, if the Bible does not enjoin the Jew or the Christian to observe Goddess associated with Tammuz) reason for use of eggs and bunnies as symbols of fertility) > obscures Passover and the significance of the redeeming blood of messiah. Ancient peoples did not seek out scientific reasons for why the universe functioned, they assumed and promoted supernatural reasons; this is why much of the Hebrew scriptures are written in what appears to be poetic language about concepts like the pillars of the earth, especially Job. 189-213 (available on JSTOR.org), Tammuz and the Bible (this one was great), Edwin Yamauchi (Ph.D. specializing in Ancient History, Old Testament, New Testament, Early Church History, Gnosticism, and Biblical Archaeology), Journal of Biblical LiteratureVol. Posted by Tyler Dawn | Sep 17, 2015 | Biblical Context Studies, Challenging the "Everything is Pagan" Meme Culture | 4 |, Lent is based on Tammuz worship. Thats the claim lets test it against what is actually known and weigh the evidence. commentary on Ezekiel 8, Myths from Mesopotamia, Stephanie Dalley (Ph.D. Assyriology expert and often quoted by other scholars), pp 154-162, Handbook of Life in Ancient Mesopotamia, Stephen Bertman, Ph.D. pp 83, 117, Toward the Image of Tammuz, Thorkild Jacobsen (Ph.D. Assyriology and Sumerian Literature) History of Religions,Vol. was directly borrowed from the worshippers of the Babylonian goddess [Astarte there sat women weeping for Tammuz." (Ezekiel 8:14) Read Digging into the History of Father's Day . The true history of Easter, the origin and rituals practiced over 2000 year ago and still practiced in todays churches including the red eggs dyed in blood. At their first encounter, Ishtar is said to have fallen in love with the shepherd boy Tammuz who in turn asks for her hand in marriage. 4:3-4). . Tammuz, Alabaster relief from Ashur, c. 1500 BC Worshippers of Tammuz wept with his consort Ishtar believing that his rebirth would mean the regeneration of life within nature. "lengthening spring days," from the Indo-European langat-tin, 1, No. Catholics are required to fast and are Because Tammuz was killed when he was forty years old, Pagans fast one day for each of the years that he lived leading into Easter. days, made imperative on all within the Roman empire of the West. Love poetry centered on the relationship between Inanna and Tammuz is quite pornographic (Pritchard, pgs 404-408). Nothe jealous One in the case of the Temple being defiled is God Himself, who couldnt care less what type of idol it was, only that there was an idol. Lent was held 40 days before the feast, "celebrated by alternate weeping and rejoicing.". What does the word 'idols' mean in 1 John 5:21 and what exactly is idolatry? So for six months (the time of no rain and dead plants and a big deal in agricultural societies which generally had very limited ability to store up produce and grain for future use and as they were a subsistence society, they always struggled to grow enough food for this year and maybe some for the next), Tammuz had to be gonenow where could he go that he could not do his job? ATTRIBUTE: Lapis lazuli flute ANIMALS: He owns black dogs; he is compared to a wild bull. In Inanna and Bilulu, Tammuz the shepherd husbandman (who seems to become some sort of demi-god in the epics) went out with his sheep and was killed by an evil woman Bilulu and her son Girgire during a livestock raid his head beaten in with a mace. 84, No. Why was everything. But at last, when the worship of Astarte was rising into the ascendant, Does a summoned creature play immediately after being summoned by a ready action? It would also appear that the Israelites were worshipping a Sumerian deity and were thus punished for it. Easter, Ishtar, Ashtoreth: Goddess of Fertility & Queen of Heaven Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for professors, theologians, and those interested in exegetical analysis of biblical texts. eighth centuries; there are no feasts observed on Sundays; purple vestments unknown to the disciples and it did not find its way into the church He [Tammuz] appears to have been a god of the spring, and the myth regarding In the Epic of Gilgamesh (vi, 46-7) Ishtar is said to have decreed annual lamentations for her lover Dumuzi. varied. published by Guildhall Publishers, Peoria Illinois, 61651., page 554. In the Babylonian myth, Tammuz was killed by a wild boar, and his wife Ishtar dedicated 40 days to weeping and fasting. This flies in the face of most commentaries. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. The Bible refers to her as "Ashtoreth the abomination of the Sidonians" ( 2 Kings 23:13. Your email address will not be published. He appears to have been a god of the spring, and the myth regarding him told of his early death and of the descent of Istar his bride into the underworld in search of him. Are the women weeping so as to ensure that Tammuz will return and bless the land again? Is Gest jest a prefix? This is why Lent means "spring"; it took place from spring to early summer. Is it possible to rotate a window 90 degrees if it has the same length and width? . He was the one building the tower of Babel. Thanks for contributing an answer to Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange! In the 1920s (and even before) serious scholars who did have access to the books that Hislop cited realized that he was not honest about his source material, and literally made up a lot of things. The passage doesn't explain what it means, although they are engaged in some form of idolatry. fasting in the wilderness, but it is admitted that the observance of Lent All of a sudden (well not really all of a sudden, they took a long time to compile and translate the process is still ongoing) we had real-time information on gods and goddesses that we previously had only been able to make assumptions about based on medieval Jewish myths like, Tammuz is another one of these Sumerian gods who came to life again through the excavators shovel. Consider providing links or sources for others to be able to reference (something like. Sunday. Goliath taunted Israel for 40 days: 1 Sam 17:16. Source: The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop, second What is the point of Thrower's Bandolier? Rob Q on Twitter . will find no mention of Jews or Christians observing an annual period of To answer the question of why Tammuz was carrying a branch, it is quite simple Tammuz was an agricultural/shepherd deity. 5 A celebration called Easter (fertility rites to Ishtar. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. Pg. Topological invariance of rational Pontrjagin classes for non-compact spaces. the Israelites.". Indeed they put the branch to The visions of the temple that God gave to Ezekiel in chapter eight actually show what was taking place in Jerusalem at the temple. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. To begin, @lasersauce made the correct observation that. Enraged, Ishtar sent the fierce Bull of Heaven to kill Gilgamesh, but he and his friend Enkidu (pronounced EN-kee-doo) killed the beast instead. least an indirect connection with the pre-Christian [pagan] feasts But I will get all of the verses and timelines together and repost <3, Welcome to Stack Exchange. Worshippers were to meditate upon the sacred mysteries of Baal and Tammuz, and to make the sign . The sun-worship services of the backslidden Israelites, with their women participating in the rites of Astarte worship (Easter) and weeping for Tammuz was detestable to Almighty Yahweh. She claimed by baal to have immaculately conceived bringing forth a son called Tammuz. She was even identified with Mary as Mary was falsely deified and took on the titles "Mother of God" and "Queen of . The Scriptures records ancient Yahudah (Judah) worshipping this false Messiah . There sat women weeping for Tammuz". - Epic of Gilgamesh Tablet VI, 14 Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the Lord; women were sitting there weeping for Tammuz. It was with the view, no doubt, of carrying One of these ceremonies is recorded in Ezekiel 8:14 Ezekiel 8:14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. Ancient Resurrection Myths Led to Easter Customs Welcome to the forum. Baal, Tammuz, Ashtoreth, Astarte and Ishtar are all connected with pagan sun Do I need a thermal expansion tank if I already have a pressure tank. Asaph was a musician in the Levitical priesthood of Israel. The date of Athanasius' letter lol, she was called the heavenly grape-vine but that is interesting, that the wife and sister have similar names and especially since Inanna had nothing to do with grape vines herself, but was the goddess of the storehouse in the earliest legends. yet today most of the Christian world observes a 40 day period called Lent, "In the fourth century Saint Athanasius enjoined the people of Alexandria Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for professors, theologians, and those interested in exegetical analysis of biblical texts. times these forty days were observed with weeping, fasting, and self chastisement -- to It only takes a minute to sign up. it was observed before the year 339. The people had forsaken God, forgot God, and God would destroy the temple. This is vital! Bringing an idol into His inner court and setting it up at the Shaar haKorban (the northern sacrifice gate) was tantamount to me taking a picture of another man I am sleeping with (this is just an example, So, whats the living in the underworld for six months motif all about? among the Phoenicians, Egyptians, Mexicans, and, for a time, even among 2 (Winter, 1962), pp. When Nimrod died Semiramis was pregnant. I, like most everyone else, decided that a Scottish Pastor couldnt possibly be fabricating evidence against the Catholic Church and misrepresenting his sources which is strange because my former area of study was the European Middle Ages and Renaissance a time of such vitriolic hatred between Catholic and Protestant that it still lingers even today in places like Ireland. }. Therefore I also will act in fury. Movie with vikings/warriors fighting an alien that looks like a wolf with tentacles, Euler: A baby on his lap, a cat on his back thats how he wrote his immortal works (origin? The Catholic Fact Book, copyright 1986 by John Deedy, Cited in in the Search for Truth! It is one thing to study the materials I present and come out in disagreement, and quite another to simply attack me based upon assumptions of my motives especially if you have not done the research yourself. The Liturgy of the Church reflects The Bible does not say. 'long'+ 'day' -- became more or less fixed at forty Teaser sample of Context For Kids Volume 1: Honor and Shame in the Bible Coming Soon! This is reminiscent of the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel (For another scholarly take on the identity of the Queen of Heaven, I recommend Dr. Dinah Dyes book The Temple Revealed in Creation). The name Tammuz occurs once in the Bible. Is a PhD visitor considered as a visiting scholar? I've heard that supposedly the weeping lasted for only a couple of days, while others say it lasted for the month named after him. is still observed by the Yezidis or Pagan Devil-worshippers of Koordistan, Weeping for Tammuz Tammuz was raised from death to life every spring in the form of an egg and 40 days before this happened the women would cry and push ashes on their head and that was the origin of Lent. until several centuries after the time of the Messiah. But she is not the mother of Tammuz because we have accounts of the mother and sister of Tammuz through the legends we possess about him. commemoration of the death and resurrection of Tammuz -- which was The Feast of Tammuz was usually celebrated in June (also called the "month of Tammuz"). The information available is very complex, so I have gleaned the most relevent information to answer the question. I suppose its harmless because nobody actually cares about Tammuz since the practice has currently morphed into a celebration leading up to Easter (Ishtar) or Resurrection Day (of Jesus Christ). The hemerologies state that the lamentations and "binding" of Tammuz were celebrated in the month Tammuz (Du'uzu); the weeping took place on the second day and on the 9th, 16th and 17th there were processions of torches. Episode 123: Mark Part 58The Abomination that Causes Desolation. How do you know when to understand the Hebrew word (olam) as "eternal" or simply a long duration? Jesus was seen for 40 days after His crucifixion: Acts 1:3. pp. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? the calendar, it was found no difficult matter, in general, to get Paganism @Lizzie Wow! In Arbela, yet another (funerary) display was reserved for the 29th, which seems to have been the last day of the rite.- Scurlock, J. (Ezekiel 8:14) Jerome identifies Tammuz with Adonis, of Grecian mythology, who was fabled to have lost his wife while hunting, by a wound from the tusk of a wild boar.He was greatly beloved by the goddess Venus, who was inconsolable at his loss. Here is a an additional source, covering most of the same information, but more recently printed, although not as plainly laid out. Hope of Israel Ministries -- Taking a Lead Rob Q @RQ_Spartan . On the Babylonian calendar, we see that the month of Tammuz roughly corresponds with July the time when the pasture lands wither and die. A period of 40 days is rather Fish eating on "Good" Friday: The fish symbol also represents the goddess of fertility and is considered as a woman's vulva: the creator of life. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. 1 (1992): 5367. The Devil knew of God's intention to produce a seed or offspring, who would crush the head of the serpent. The year was 339, and Athanasius was recently back from It should be noted that Tammuz went pig hunting and was gored to death by a wild boar and that is why Pagans eat ham on Easter. weeping for Tammuz Archives - Truth Snitch Confronting a Devastating Doctrine: Are Children Is Hand Washing Commanded? behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the The Expositor's Bible Commentary says regarding this verse: "Tammuz, later linked to Adonis and Aphrodite by name, was a god of fertility and rain . Easter, which is named after the Babylonian goddess Ishtar, (otherwise known as Astarte (Semiramis), who was the wife of Nimrod), was first celebrated to honor Tammuz. which precedes the festival of Easter Sunday. Halloween: Anyone here observe Lent, etc? | Baptist Christian Forums Source: Gieseler, vol. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Tag: weeping for Tammuz. However, here does not take the form found in the above citations, rather appearing in the causative: Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. Ezekiel 8 in Context Part 2, Episode 164: Purim 2023Honor, Shame and Two Brave Queens, Episode 163: Sociology IIReligion, Weird Science, and Practical Linguistics, Episode 162 Sociology I: Groupthink, Holy/Profane and Clean/Unclean, Episode 161: The Advent of John the Baptist in Luke, Episode 160: Special Teaching #1The Advent of the Messiah in Matthew, Infertility, Barreness, Miscarriage, Stillbirth and Child Loss. Tammuz was a pagan god or idol that the women were weeping for on the north side of the temple. Canaan spied on for 40 days: Num 13:25, 14:34. They went in and stood beside the bronze altar. I am a chemist, and my husband is an engineer so we had to take some of the same classes, but both basic engineering and the sciences can exist without each other yet neither can exist without physics and math.). for thus we read in Humboldt, where he gives account of Mexican observances: had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and The women who wept for Tammuz wore jewelry shaped like naked women and portions of the male anatomy. The second option is that they, as in other cultures, are sympathetically casting their tears upon the ground that has been cursed with no rain because Tammuz is in the underworld. urged to adopt other penitential modes during the season.". Easter - NearlyFreeSpeech "Lent is the 40-day period (Sundays excluded) prior to Easter, which Thank you for your energetic search! The Temple was the very House and Throne of God upon Earth. Evil Holidays | The Latter Rain Ministry Church, however, Lent begins eight weeks before Easter, since fasting is It is common for people to be very emotionally attached to legends, but remember that regardless, I am a sister in Messiahnot simply someone to lash out at. Source: The New Question Box Easter, providing forty fast days when Sundays are excluded. The Resurrection Day of Tammuz (Easter) by Rav Sha'ul. . Journal of Assyriology and Oriental Archaeology 86, no. Hislop points out that forty days -- a day for each year Tammuz excluded on Saturdays and Sundays. writing in the fifth century, and contrasting the primitive Church with In which season did the incident occur: Easter? him told of his early death and of the descent of Istar, his bride, into these: 'Those who inhabit the princely city of Rome fast together stock as the only people who do not fast but take pleasure in those days." Similar feasts are found throughout pagan peoples of antiquity. Catholics, Lent is derived from the 40 days Yeshua spent fasting in The chief seat of the cult in Syria was Gebal (modern Gebail, Greek Bublos . Publishers, "The reasons for celebrating our major feasts when we do are many and Albertojr555 on Twitter: "@RQ_Spartan @DatPolySciGuy @Joanna__nr I did Do they provoke me to anger? the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire. Box 853 Tammuz was a master at love poems and he wrote love poems to Ivanna aka Isthar, asthoreth. than fasting, and as a time of prayer. steps were taken to get the whole Chaldean Lent of six weeks, or forty Do roots of these polynomials approach the negative of the Euler-Mascheroni constant? Quin fue Tamz, por qu (y cundo) las mujeres lloraban por l? The Hebrew word for weeping is . This tradition is so well established that it is believed to have begun with the resurrection of our Saviour and instituted by His apostles in the first century in commemoration of that event. The Latter Days: Lent and the Celebration of Tammuz - Blogger how long that should be. to observe a forty day period of fasting prior to Easter, indicating that This has to be bigger than individual ministries, otherwise, what are we doing but following the religious mistakes of the past? Tammuz is sent unceremoniously down to the underworld by his angry wife (after being hunted down by demons), not actually dead but just consigned to live down there for six months out of every year. There's much more, but this is who he is. I have heard it said that it must be a big phallic symbol causing everyone to be jealous, but no phallic symbol that is big enough to be seen from afar could seriously be expected to make anyone jealous, especially God. The Season of Teshuva between Elul 1 and Yom Kippur during which the 40 days of fasting and Temptation of the Messiah occurred). Psalm 82 is not referring to the Chaldean "idols" which are not real and do not have any power to save or resurrect life. days, less Sundays; the time frame did not become official, though, until I wouldn't say it's fair to exclude sources based on their antiquity (esp. Are the women weeping so as to ensure that Tammuz will return and bless the land again? Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. So the 40 days of Lent is connected with the Babylonian goddess Ashtoreth/ Astarte/Ishtar (the origin of the word Easter), and the worship of Ham had a son named Cush. 3 (Sep. 1965), pp. As we see in this picture take by Matthew Vander Els in the Golan, it would be a terribly stressful time. The Original Myth. Very simplethe ancients noticed that there was a wet season where everything grew and flourished and a dry season where everything died off. Nicely answered, Sam, and welcome to the forum. So You Think Easter is Pagan Part 3: Modern Easter Tradition. Banish the Easter Bunny! - The Scribe's Portion an inconvenience as abstaining from chocolate or ice cream for the duration. had made in the two courts of the house of the LORD, did the king beat Who did first set forth in print, and when, that the passengers and crew actually overheard the yearly weeping for Tammuz? How many nations were under the Assyrian Cedar Tree? published by Thomas More Press, page 360. Carnival, was entirely unknown; and even when fasting before the Christian Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible, Karel Van der Toorn, et al. Lord said to him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. P.O. Only a small remnant would escape and Ezekiel cried out for mercy (9:1-8).Ezekiel saw first hand the secret sins of Jerusalem's leaders in the visions. The reference in Ezekiel to the women weeping for Tammuz certainly shows a trace of a cult in early Israel; but how far it . Source: The Catechism of the Catholic Church, copyright inviolate.". Unfortunately, Tammuz (who was said to be immortal) inconveniently dies at the age of 40 due to being gored by a wild bull. Do Genesis 7 and 8 imply a month was 30 days long? Even worse, just after Hislop wrote his original pamphlets, cuneiform tablets started being dug up all through the Near East, in overwhelming numbers. These rites began on the 26th, with the last moonlight, and continued through the 29th.- Fleming, Daniel E. Time at Emar: The Cultic Calendar and the Rituals from the Diviner's Archive. was unknown to the disciples and it did not find its way into the church Copyright 1966, 1992 printing, page 139. My hand has now been forced by my need to clear my JSTOR bookshelf and so I need to do something with all these Tammuz articles. as we are, yet without sinning" [Heb 4:15]. Tammuz. the LORD, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which was in the wilderness, but it is admitted that the observance of Lent was What does the word (giyd) mean in Ezekiel 37:8? Stephanie Rae (@weirdochicken) nannies for three young kids, ages 6, 9, and 12, and her afternoons are often spent shuttling them from one activity to the next.Their schedules don't always mesh well, which is why she recently found herself rushing the 6-year-old to a birthday party and barely making it in time to drop the 9-year-old off at gymnastics. Topical Bible: Tammuz In their minds, there was a god responsible for absolutely every function, and agriculture was a huge function. common in scripture, however: It rained 40 days and nights: Gen 7:4, 12. Tag! Queen of heaven, Easter and weeping for Tammuz like today's church it had been, to the threshold of the temple. Are there tables of wastage rates for different fruit and veg? Here are some sources I've found regarding the weeping of tammuz but does anyone have some other sources regarding this practice? . Weeping for Tammuz was a forty day ritual of fasting and mourning. But its from a god to a goddess that existed in those days. sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tested Weeping for Tammuz was a 40 day mourning period for a pagan sun deity that which God castigates Israel for whoring after in Ezekiel 8:13-16. It would appear that the crying lasted some time after the initial event of Ezekiel 8:14 as noted below: And He said to me, Have you seen this, O son of man? cry over all the abominations that are done within it. Ezekiel The council of 70 if you will which Jesus spoke to in John 10:34, He quoted from this Psalm in pointing out the Sanhedrins' hypocrisy. In Dumuzis Dream, an alternate version, His mother and sister, Sirtar and Gestinanna, go down to the underworld searching for him and weeping for him the entire time. 8:12-14] He called it an abomination. In general, however, it is true that many of them have at least What does the Most High mean by 'inhabiting the waste places of the land of Israel' in Ezekiel 33:24? Hope of Israel Ministries Moses on Sinai for 40 days: Exo 24:18, 34:28, Deu 9:9-11. The 27th of Duuzu was the day of releasing; it was also a day on which a (funerary) display was made in Aur Nineveh, Kalu and Arbela. Can the answer brook Kidron. I am a chemist, and my husband is an engineer so we had to take some of the same classes, but both basic engineering and the sciences can exist without each other yet neither can exist without physics and math.). Athanasius wrote. Tammuz, sometime chthonic spirit, is among those deities invoked in the magic spells of the Magical Papyri of Alexandria. This superstition had been introduced into Jerusalem. time frame was never fixed, rules never formalized. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? Comments are just for comments and may wind up being deleted. The roots of the Easter celebration date to long before Jesus Christ's life, death and resurrection. She took on many names in different cultures including Isis, Diana, Astarte, Ishtar, Aphrodite, Venus, and Easter. Could it be an offering of water (tears) to the soil in the absence of the fertility that Tammuz brings? Ezekiel 8 - Wikipedia says YHWH: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? "Some sources allege that the forty-day Lent was not known in the West Therefore thus says the YHWH ELOHIYM; Behold, my anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place.. altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple Christianity changed Passover to Easter. burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the the date of Easter), and it concludes with the Passiontide, the two-week to the great annual festival in commemoration of the death and resurrection Challenging the "Everything is Pagan" Meme Culture. The mourning for Baal as a vegetation deity in eclipse suggests the weeping for Tammuz, also a vegetation deity, by the woman of Jerusalem in the sixth month (Ezek 8:14) and, more directly, the public mourning for Hadad-Rimmon (the Canaanite Baal) in the valley of Megiddo (Zech 12:11). American King James Version , where Ezekiel saw in vision an abominable sight: women "weeping for Tammuz" at the very temple of God. God calls it an abomination! a trip to Europe, including Rome. and Christianity -- now far sunk in idolatry -- in this as in so many other period of fasting in the Roman Church before the sitting of the Nicene Yeah I know the only sources that I can find regarding the weeping of Tammuz was 40 days and was the origin of Lent is from fundamentalists, . I'd suggest that unless you're paraphrasing due to length, make sure to indicate direct quotes from your sources by starting each line with the character denoting a blockquote, which is >. When he brought the prophet to the north gate of the visionary Temple, he saw women sitting there weeping for Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:14). (Lent). In this regard, Becking and Dijkistra (1996) provide important historical details. This is a substantial answer and I have up-voted it. Different groups of deity. of the children of Ammon, did the king defile. I meant to write this a few months ago when something strange about the Temple description caught my eye. (which can occur any time between February 4 and March 11, depending upon Council does not very clearly appear, but for a considerable period after

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